Here is the story of Pete Townshend's spiritual relationship with Meher Baba and how it affected his life and work, as told in Pete's own words, sourced from various interviews and articles over the years. The Avatar. He just came and went. Meher Baba. While in college, he built up an affection for an old woman named Hazrat Babajan, who was in reality a Perfect Master.
One day she kissed him on the forehead, and from that moment he was changed. He neither ate nor slept for months, and spent the next seven years in study with the five Perfect Masters of the time. One of these Masters, Upasni Maharaj, threw a stone at Baba, hitting him at the spot where Babajan had kissed him, between his eyes. It was at this moment that Baba became aware of his role and destiny as a Perfect Master himself. His silence was of great symbolical meaning. Baba said, "You have had enough of my words, now is the time to live by them.
In later life, Baba explained that the "word" he would speak would not be a word in the ordinary sense, but would be in his own Divine language. I often wondered previous to hearing this how Baba would manage to utter even a single word after 40 years of silence without a terrible croak emerging, but at last I heard that Baba did in fact speak to himself, his vocal chords functioned.
The effect of this word on any given individual would depend on that individual's readiness to receive it. The spiritually prepared would get it at full force, receiving a push towards Self-Realization that they couldn't normally achieve even in many incarnations. The unprepared would feel nothing, but all mankind would receive an immense spiritual push. I held that Baba's word has been spoken, probably about the time of his death. I felt confused that I was suffering from a bout of flu when Baba was about to drop his earthly body.
We were playing in Newcastle the day he died, and when I got home and the news was broken to me I felt as if I had betrayed myself. I felt as if I hadn't had enough time to really make myself ready, to learn to love Baba and hang tightly to his apron strings as the whirlwind of spiritual events around the closing of his manifestation speeded up. Mike later became very involved in the development of my own work on Tommy, and it was in the knowledge that he was a Baba lover; and able to grasp the needs of the evolving album, that I asked him to do the art work connected.
Every time I came up with a world-wise theory that had taken me years of thought to get clear he would say, "That's such a coincidence man, this guy Meher Baba said something similar to that in this book, The God Man. What I saw apart from a photo in the front cover of a strange and elderly man, was shattering. Sure enough, each theory that I had expounded, many to do with reincarnation and its inevitability when considered in the light of law of averages, were summed up in one sentence.
Pete with Mike and Katie McInnerney. At first his words were encouraging, his state of consciousness and his claims to be the Christ exciting and daring, later they became scary. I began to read his words, read of his astoundingly simple relationship with his disciples Mandali and of his silence for 40 years. It became clear that the party was over. If I read any more lines like "What I want from my Lovers is real unadulterated love, and from my genuine workers I expect real work done," I would have to decide once and for all whether the whole thing was really for me or not.
The thing I tell people that ask me this question is that nothing ostensibly changes when an individual hears about Baba and starts to devote time to thinking about him and his work. No all-pervading joy creeps into life, no formula for solving difficult problems. In some cases it seems to bring problems to a head. At least they are over with that way. Longing, pleading, desperate and even more dependent on ego than before, you attempt to work out how it all came about.
You didn't meet Baba, didn't even read much of his teachings. What you read was simple, not astounding. It seemed so right though. Could I ever forget? Unprepared to receive such upfront and powerful love, the individual hides from it. Partly in shame, but mostly in pride.
The rub is that Baba seduces you. Never wrote him a letter or received one. How am I hanging on? I'm not hanging on, I'm stuck on. People could easily get the idea that I'm an unwilling Baba lover, or "Baba Tryer" as I prefer to call myself. No, it's just that I was unwilling to let go of that incredible piece of happiness, that unqualified stab of love that I didn't even ask for, didn't expect, and it's made my life, which I know to be as colorful as any, gray in comparison.
Each little stream that runs into the Thames feeding it and building it sustains the ocean. Retains the cycle of life that keeps our planet moist and airy. We too need sustaining, love is the only thing that can do it. Actually it's just the opposite, All that happens is that, for the first time in your life, you acknowledge the fact that you've got problems instead of futilely trying to solve them.
The problems become more acute, yet somehow less painful. Still, they don't get solved automatically. The only way in this lifetime that you can move something from A to B is to get up and fucking move it. There's no magic. All Baba has done is to get me to start looking outside myself and tempering all my results in his terms rather than my own. I mean this is a very bad thing to say, but I'm very worried that I'm fucking around with the most serious thing a man can ever wake up to. And that's the fact that I very sincerely believe I know the route to perfection.
That route, in my case, is through living my life in a way that would please Baba. I get very scared when I see that I'm fucking around with my life. I'm my own witness, I know when I'm doing it right according to my own set of rules. I get scared when I don't live up to those rules, that's all. I get scared when I see I'm not my own master. I feel there's a power within me that's getting more and more impatient with me, like a schizophrenic situation. What makes following Baba different to following anybody else is that you don't change at all.
You don't look upon ego, in the true mystical sense, as being an enemy. You look at it in proportion, and you realize there is the thing which is driving you, and it's eventually going to destroy itself. But you need ego right up to the end. Baba put it in an incredible way once. He said that when somebody finally is on the brink of a decision between surrender to the infinite and holding onto illusion, holding onto life, it's the ego that is necessary to make that last jump.
You still need the ego to say, 'I am God. So in the rock business, as a rock writer, sometimes I feel kind of out of place, like pretending that I can have any kind of spiritual poise at all when I have to adopt a sort of egoistic rock stance to work. In the afternoon, I saw a film of his entombment and felt a most powerful feeling of his presence throughout the day.
It is incredible to me — as I'm sure it is to many witnesses of my day-to-day behavior — that I still feel so moved by Meher Baba's words, photographs and films. After following him for nearly nine years, I have fallen deeply into the rhythm of focusing all my reflections on life through a lens formed of experiences I have had under his spiritual umbrella. I thought about the incredibly circuitous route I had taken to bring me to that point in October , a new British Who tour ahead of us.
I got to where I ended up. I raised my eyes to the heavens, my future Meher Baba house looming up as a great potential encroachment on my time with band, and asked the old man: "What conclusions do I draw from all this, Baba? Where do I put this love you've given me? I kneel at the foot of a picture of my Master, I plead forgiveness, but in dreams I gloat. The superb and beautiful creatures that have lain at my feet. What am I? I look in the mirror and don't see much. Am I purely a fraud? Fall in, all you cynics, but how about your own admirers?
The people I observe fall at my feet, but why? I think I know. The ego floods away from me like the crutch snatched from a cripple. But the feeling is not bad; they love me for what I could be, not for what I am. When I screamed for God to smash me down, I didn't expect for a minute that he really would.
Today I avoid making public pronouncements about his status as a spiritual master. I have my own conviction, and I enjoy a very intimate and special relationship with him that — because he passed away in two years after I started to follow him, and before I had a chance to meet him — is entirely spiritual I nature. I often feel that I can see mischievous signs of his presence in my daily life, coincidences or delightful moments.
But I feel Meher Baba too in the darker side of life we all face today. My own journey required that I learn some true humility, and also not to take myself so seriously. My drinking and drug crash would have meant little had I been content to be just a rock star, it might even have helped my career. But, as someone who had vaunted so often the spiritual power of music and audience congregation, I fell further when I crashed. I am thus - I hope - more tempered and less melodramatic about spiritual matters. I hope too that I am in a better position now to speak about what it is that really makes me continue to follow Meher Baba.
It is quite simply that I have come to love him unconditionally. That might seem dangerous, but I am asked to give no money; I am asked to make no public statements on behalf of those who carry out the work of carrying his message to the world. I am asked for nothing, except sometimes my presence in India to say goodbye to the remaining older disciples who fondly remember my musical visits in and I remember my friends in India fondly too, and I miss them.
I hope it is true humility and not lost pride that prevents me from running back like some kind of Prodigal celebrity. I concentrate my efforts now on the MEFA film archive project, and in finding Meher Baba in the rhythm of my daily life. I'm a bimbo. If you think you are not a bimbo too with regard spiritual matters you are probably Deepak Chopra or the Dalai Lama, both of whom I begrudgingly accept know a lot more than I do about the Universe, and Golf.
I'm only half joking. Meher Baba used to say God plays marbles with Creation. Didn't someone very clever say that he didn't? Golf is good middle ground here between science and silence. Meher Baba turns the evolution arguments of today between Darwinists and Creationists on their heads. He states that what matters in evolution is that it is consciousness that evolves and its requirement to rise, and to return to infinity, is what drives every aspect of evolution - even religion.
Very interesting stuff. Easy to shoot down. Easy to accept. Impossible to understand. Like everything that really matters in this wunnerful world. I have ended up somewhere in the middle. The almost blind belief I carried when I was a young man — that, as Meher Baba taught, consciousness itself was all Creation consisted of, and that consciousness is what evolved, not matter or particles — seems scientifically nonsensical to me today. Yet I still question who I am, where I came from, and where I might be going. I am still following Meher baba, but my fingers are crossed behind my back.
Sometimes I am unsure of the sanity of believing that Meher Baba is God in human form, as he claimed. Baba didn't go on at any real length about dope. He didn't feel there was any point, I suppose, as he had more or less come to the conclusion that by the time he became aware of its ever growing popularity in the West he was too old to travel again to the West, and he is too compassionate to be overly heavy.
But Baba did emphasize to a young devotee going to see Baba in about , that the biggest single gesture a man could make for youth, would be to spend his life trying to show the dangers of dope. Remember, Baba was concerned with a set of people that felt the psychedelics held the key to religious experience, to Universal consciousness. God in a pill. As we sat in a shared hotel room in San Diego I rolled a joint, spouting some high flown guff about being a happy Baba lover.
Rick took it very calmly considering that he spends a good part of his time lecturing on the spiritual side effects of "soft" drugs and what Baba had said about them. Anyway, that day was my last stoned day in the normal sense. It was easy to give it up. Like a lot of others, I was getting a little bored with pot highs which seemed limited to the strength of my imagination at any given moment.
In other words I was looking for an excuse to say no to the joint as it came round to me. Fair enough. Who am I to say they are not? In fact it was probably the harm they did that I dug. But then he says that it is all right for a sincere seeker to have been stimulated by them but not to continue use of them in the light of that. In other words if you get a buzz from something and then you dwell on it, it's the equivalent of like getting in a mood. It's like seeing something fucking incredible like a daffodil and then just looking at it till it wilts and dies.
Do you see what I mean? He just put it in a way which got to me. And I just stopped using acid straight away, just the words got me. But I went on smoking pot, and coke, and I started to get heavily into coke and other things and then all of a sudden when I did that long Rolling Stone interview, I was very hyped up on coke because we went round to the Jefferson Airplane pad in the middle of the interview, which was a silly thing to do.
The day after I did that interview, a Baba lover came to see me in San Francisco and he was talking about drugs and things and what Baba says about it, and he says, "Of course you're not still smoking dope, are you? What's Baba said about dope? So I just stopped. Just because I felt more keen about getting into Meher Baba than I felt about being stoned all my life.
Obviously it is fairly common knowledge among them that I am a Baba follower also, and despite the fact that I owe my fame ostensibly to physical and not spiritual efforts, I am treated as much of 'Baba Celebrity,' like say, an Indian visitor who has been with Baba for many years. The question that I get asked by these people, the majority of them young, and into rock, are usually the kind that are answered by what I've already written, like: When did you first hear of Baba; how is your life affected as a rock star? Many of the people I meet in the States have followed Baba far longer than I, many have met him and his intimate Mandali, and have hundreds of semi-hearsay stories to tell about Baba's dealings with the local people in his area and with themselves when they visited, or tried to visit Baba in India.
Some younger ones look to me as some kind of spiritually together super star advisor, to be hugged carefully and regarded with awe. In fact, and this should be very clear, worldly success and spiritual advancement are totally unconnected. They are also fairly independent. Baba would always maintain to his Western lovers that they should stick to their responsibilities, work hard, and realize that before society could ever be improved it needed the grace of a Messiah like Baba.
Listen to O' Parvardigar live in India I could be wrong but that's the impression I get. This was originally a Sufi center working to help people on the path, seekers, to understand the problems and nature of discipline and carefully guided efforts. When Baba was heard of, the Center instantly re-oriented its attention and began teaching courses about him. Previous to this they had been working under the wing of the Indian Sufi saint Inayat Khan. I personally love Khan's writings. He wrote all kinds of stuff about music and vibrations and breath and so on. Before settling down to really helping others get it together he had been a famous virtuoso in India on the vina, an instrument a little like the sitar.
He was dearly loved and respected both as a musician and as someone whose life reflected his spiritual conviction. She is also a lady of great vigor, adapting her center's activities to accommodate all kinds of people. And they come all shapes and sizes in San Francisco. The best way to describe the other Baba groups in S.
In the morning I visited the Murshida. Her presence always astonishes me, it's easy to tell just how much high level work Baba is doing through her. Her eyes are calm and tired, but her life frantic and ordered. The Murshida had not taken to it with unqualified praise to say the least. I think she forgave me and my pals in the end for allowing our egos to breathe using Baba's name as an umbrella. He is so much like a father, like a friend, that it's easy to forget that he is also God Almighty. Being with Murshida reminded me of the fact, it always does. There was a bus strike I think.
First stop was a house called Meherstan which is the "light" center for young Berkeley Baba lovers. We arrived, and it seemed like there were quite a few kids. A couple of guys were in groups and asked me all kinds of things about the band and our equipment, another guy who got me to take off my shoes ran a macrobiotic foodstore, Robbie Basho, a guitarist who works very much like John Fahey and whose music I like a lot, was there with a tenth as much hair as he had had in a photograph I had seen, and as usual there were beautiful girls.
I talked a bit about Tommy, how it had all come about, I compared their center to our own in London, and we talked pretty formally about life with Baba in general. I talked about dope and my trip, why and how I had stopped using it, and watched knowing smiles from young people flash as I spoke of the new high that I was getting from being with Baba. Nothing that I was ready for at all. It all started with a visit on our last tour, three years ago, to Myrtle Beach, in South Carolina, on the Atlantic Ocean.
It's made up of lots of lakes, kind of an inland Hawaii-type situation with lakes and fairly easy jungles leading down to the Atlantic coast. There are three or four thousand acres there that were a gift for an American Baba center. There are lots of little cottages and places where you can go and stay.
Baba loved the place. All of a sudden, for the first time in my life, I felt that I was in his presence. I'd never ever met him when he was alive. I put my head on the bed and fucking thought the most incredibly It was so awful, it was like being in hell. I completely broke up. I finally went out with fucking tears streaming down my face. Tears of self-pity. And I thought that I'd blown it. There I was, in the presence of the Master for the first time, and all that bullshit, all that filth.
Listen, I don't even want to relive them by discussing them in any kind of detail. Suffice it to say, they were fantastically disgusting and terrifying. I tried to convince myself that it was just a kind of cleansing process, but that wasn't what it was about at all. It was me fighting like mad not to surrender and using the most subtle, most subconscious way that I knew how. It was very, very spooky I suddenly realized that I was gonna have to go to India and at least meet all the people that were around Baba.
I went over there and the first thing that hit me was that India was a fantastically beautiful country. It's the only place where poverty is almost pure. I mean I felt like the fucking peasant with my twenty suitcases and my first-class ticket and my charcoal-gray suit. I felt like a pig, I really did. So to cut a long story short, I ended up in the tomb where Baba was buried. There's a ritual that goes on there in which you walk in, put your head down to the ground, and walk out again. This practice is often viewed as a spiritual method of approaching the Bible that involves emptying your brain and preparing to hear God speak.
It substitutes intuition for investigation. It prefers mood and emotion to methodical and reasoned inquiry. God has spoken clearly and we can see what God has said as we read the Bible. In recent years, Beth Moore has been beating the drum of ecumenism with fervor. Looking forward to sharing these programs with you. Beyond the obvious connection that Beth Moore has with Joyce Meyer, she also leads conferences with other charismatics and engages in teaching strange doctrines. Beth Moore relates the story of a woman who approached her during a conference with a message from God:.
Discernment is needed today in the church like never before. To allow women to go through church sponsored Beth Moore studies and gather for simulcast studies is to open the doors of the church to unbiblical and dangerous teaching. Pastors, guard the doors and educate the people to exercise biblical discernment. My grandson says he really likes the band Beth Moore and The Distance.
The old boy network is feeling threaatened i guess. Sad that so many old white men are so scared of what enlightened women are saying. Emma, he is listening to Geoff Moore and the Distance. Geoff for the last 15 years or more has been solo. To my knowledge, there is no connection at all to Beth Moore. Your grandson sounds like quite the young whippersnapper! My grandma lives just up the road from Port Manteau. Her name is Mrs. Malaprop and she makes the best cookies ever from recipes she gets from her computer. If she reaches just ONE soul, good for her! Get a life Josh Buice.
Josh, YOU are the one that should be yanked out of bible studies. What is the difference if I speak to a friend or to thousands of friends about God?!?! Woman of God. He quoted ONE scripture repeatedly. After all, those are also demanded by Paul in 1 Timothy She always offers disclaimers at her conferences that she is there to teach women — not men.
It does say in the Bible that women are not to preach the word. The difference is that the pastor is over and aware of what is being taught. If Beth does not have a man over her and working with her on her topics of discussion well that could be cause for sin against the Lord. Only the Lord knows and we are not to judge that is his area. Dear Jamie: I read your post you put there. Yes, it is good to save lost souls. But if you have committed to the Lord. You will find out that it is forbidden for a woman to become a pastor OK?
In regards in being a pastor. Beth Moore is not teaching in the proper ethics in Bible ways. As she is thinking that Catholic ways are correct. And that they are denomination within evangelicalism. If you read the bible. It says first hand. That there is no other Father but God. See Exodus says 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me. As you see in the verse there is only one Father. Jesus Christ. And Your not to pray to other angels. Because they did not die on the cross for your sins. Only Jesus Christ did. So the people in Catholics pray to Mary Magdalene to intercede for there sins to ask Jesus to forgive them of there sins.
So means we should worship and pray to God. Not Mary. And look at the what Catholics are doing now. Having Homosexuals as Priests in a Catholic churches. And becoming to be a member of the Catholics in good standards. See this verse. Leviticus 22 and Leviticus says. Leviticus 22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. Leviticus says 13If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.
This simply means it is a sin in the eyes of God to be a homosexual. And as far as Beth Moore teaching and becoming a Pastor. This is morally wrong in the eyes of God. See exodus Which says plainly saying 1st Timothy 2: this.
And this is plain that God meant this to be part of the commandments we must follow. If you deny any of Gods commandments. And follow just some. Your not doing right in God eyes. As we must be always righteous in God at all times. And People and Christians just going to church and only learning Gods wisdom only on Sundays only. Does not give you sufficient growing abilities and wisdom and enough knowledge. Reading the bible daily gives you that ability to grow and prosper in the Lords ways. I have prayed for you.
Hoping God will touch you to understand my meanings. I hope your saved. There is only correct interpretation of the Bible, but many different applications, Where are your scripture to to refute his Correct point view. Amen Jamie!!! This article is BUNK!! I agree with you, this article is bunk! Shame on you!! Read for yourself and ask Jesus to show you what it means.
Open your heart to the WORD because it is all powerful. Bless you. Yes it is interesting. Follow your rules and please man yet judge him.. You make a statement that simply cannot be validated. Beth continues to claim that God spoke to her…God said to her…. God spoke to her in a vision…. I agree. Do you know women even got the vote? What a chauvinist you are!
Paul also preferred singleness. Does that mean he was single, or that all Christians are called to be single, according to the Bible,by no means. God intended us to have a helpmate. I saw her on Saturday and she was very clear on working with the Southern Baptist Convention,but being Ministering interdenominationally. I as I said earlier prefer the Biblical nondenominational. She may have said the word catholic, but she never taught or promoted it in any way, shape,or form.
If she had, or had promoted the Baptist or Methodist denominations, I would have walked out of the program. To even understand that verse.. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study.
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In 1 Corinthians Paul himself acknowledges that women publicly prayed and prophesied. Apparently, however, the women were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom.. Because these women were new converts, they did not yet have the necessary experience, knowledge, ir Christian maturity to teach those who already had extensive scriptural education. In all that Paul wrote.. Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church.
Phoebe worked in the church Romans The Ephesian church had a particular problem with false teachers. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings.. It can be disheartening when people pluck out a verse to twist its meaning…without actually reading even the whole chapter to get a clearer understanding of what was meant so as to keep from misunderstanding what it means or misleading others.
Totally agree with you Jamie! This article is crap! Through God, Beth Moore has saved more lives then you ever will, Josh! The only reason so called Christians are turning against her is because she is railing against Drumpf. I always find it extremely unfortunate when men pull out 1 Timothy to validate their insecurity about women teaching scripture.
Interesting that the scriptures in which Paul speaks of women who were teaching and evangelizing alongside him Romans ; Philippians are NEVER quoted by said men. This is one example where Paul addressed a specific cultural situation, but the rest of his teachings promote the leadership of women both in the church and the gospel. Furthermore, current scholarship is NOT clear on the translation of this passage.
So while these verses are often used to defend male-only leadership, current scholarship suggests that the passage is murky at best. For example, Paul commended the ministry of a woman who brought his letter to the Roman Christians Romans ,2. Phoebe was a servant of the church at Cenchrea. This entitled her to a position of honor in the church. In Romans 16, Paul commended the ministries of about twice as many women as men in the list of those he greeted. If Paul followed ancient custom when he praised Priscilla, he may have mentioned her before her husband Aquila because of her higher status Romans ,4.
Elsewhere we learn that she and her husband taught Scripture to another minister, Apollos Acts Paul also listed two fellow apostles, Andronicus and Junia Romans Although Junia is clearly a feminine name, writers opposed to the possibility that Paul could have referred to a female apostle,10 suggest that Junia is a contraction for the masculine Junianus. This contraction, however, never occurs, and more recently has been shown to be grammatically impossible for a Latin name like Junia. This suggestion rests not on the text itself, but entirely on the presupposition that a woman could not be an apostle.
Elsewhere Paul referred to the ministry of two women in Philippi, who, like his many male fellow ministers, shared in his work for the gospel there Philippians ,3. Although Paul ranked prophets second only to apostles 1 Corinthians , he acknowledged the ministry of prophetesses 1 Corinthians , following the Hebrew Bible Exodus ; Judges ; 2 Kings ,14 and early Christian practice Acts ,18; Thus those who complain that Paul did not specifically mention women pastors by name miss the point.
Paul rarely mentioned any men pastors by name, either. He most often simply mentioned his traveling companions in ministry, who were naturally men. Given the culture he addressed, it was natural that fewer women could exercise the social independence necessary to achieve positions of ministry. Where they did, however, Paul commended them and included commendations to women apostles and prophets, the offices of the highest authority in the church.
So you basically ignore entire passages of Paul praising women for their ministry to MEN to shore up your position of insecurity, and demean the ministry of a woman in the process. First of all, I completely disagree with your positions. Please give your own opinion next time as opposed to simply copying and pasting from another source.
I do want to ask a question, though. Your website says God called you and your wife into ministry of the gospel. I refer to Joel I see Trump is being brought into this. Anybody here voting for Hillary Clinton…. There is not a single person here that truly knows the Lord…if they are voting for Hillary Clinton. Where does that verse talk about teaching. I hope you have answer to that before you call this article debunk and putting everyone who talks about 1 Tim. I do not see how it is equal rights for women or how it empowers them.
I would love to see my point of view corrected according to the Bible if I am wrong. But kindly do that correction with the Biblical point of view and not philosophical ideaset. Yours truely. She is allowed to speak and teach to women even if you believe in a literal interpretation of the passages quoted by the author of this article. He sounds more like the accuser of the brethren. Where is the love? Who took his lollipop? It must have been a woman? Josh, You may want to continue seeking deliverance until you are really delivered.
Clearly, you have issues with women in ministry. Before the fall, in the Garden of Eden, God gave them as in both of them authority and Dominion. Jamie I completely agree with you. Beth is touching thousands of lives and souls. Her sermons touched mine when I was 8. This link also helped clear things up a bit for me about 1 Timothy 2 and hopefully will for you all too:. Finally, I have never heard Beth twist scripture as she is basically accused of in this article. Paul had not authority but what was given by GOD and if men in the church would stand up then maybe women could be quite and work serving but until that day… God will have the rocks cry out and teach if we all just close up.
Thank you for saying this. Ive never read such a load of judgemental crap in my life. He is the one with faulty theology not Beth. That was Paul who said women should keep silent. That was how things were back then. Some believe Paul said that in order to protect women as they could be stoned for speaking out in those days. Josh are you still wearing sandals and a robe as they did back then? What about a turban? That is so not Biblical. Seems you have a few things in your own closet….. Women of God — that was very shallow….. Surely such a complex gender debate should not be so briefly skimmed over in a simple theological bible blog.
If you want to start a gender debate concerning women preachers and back it up properly, write a proper theological essay. I do not care to hear your whimsical interpretations thrown around without an in-depth study of what the bible does, in fact, say about gender politics. I am not surprised so many women from all over the world have snapped back at this article, as you cannot debunk Beth Moores career, if that is what you are intending to do and make her fans change their minds with a trashy clickbait blog post.
Grace And Peace. THREE things! Grandma Emma, if nothing else, you have contributed to the delightfulness of this blog with your input. As an added bonus, you have probably just increased records sales another 10, units by giving free advertising to the real band. Ummm…what about Joel ?? Josh, may I ask how God speaks to you? A relationship- how do you have a relationship with Him if you do not communicate with Him?
And actually through any way He chooses. But you disagree in what she says?? Or actually how she says God communicates with her? Has God not spoken to you? I think that if we are true believers, followers of Christ, God uses many different ways to communicate with us. God only is her judge. You are not. I am not. But I believe because of her study in His Word, he probably reveals to her in all the ways she says because if her desire to know Him more. That means the three in one God experiences emotion.
Strong emotion. Loving them with their differences and all. One of the greatest 3 word sermons was given to and delivered by a woman. Agree with Marcy. Educated and true Christian people understand that some scriptures written at various times are reflective of societal issues and local customs and that existed during those times. Steve D. Also- how do you explain Deborah? Read the book of Judges. Barak refused to go to war without HER!!!! He lacked faith in God,…. Deborah was leading Israel at one time,… and the people came to her to resolve their disputes!
There are other women that God used like her.. The author of this article needs to spend his time going back to GOD and listening to instruction. Obviously, he is not doing that. God will use anyone he wants to — not just men. Seems in conflict with who Jesus was and how he spoke out against this type of thing. Your message is lost here. Save the lost or police the saved? Joel in context, your sons is in reference to the jews. The Jews in the future.
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Peter refers to this as a partial fulfillment in the book of acts. Where to you Evangelical types get your information, or rather misinformation, on the Roman Catholic and other faiths and Protestant denominations? You are sadly lacking some valuable knowledge here about religious language, historic practices and traditions, and important Biblical facts. Evangelical churches and denominations did not just pop out of thin air. They evolved down through the shared family tree of the mainline denominations.
Beth Moore May not be the best choice when it comes to accurate and basic biblical interpretation. Each denomination and school of thought will have a differing opinion on whether women should or should not preach or teach Bible lessons. What is at question is her ability to interpret the voice of God she claims to hear and to interpret and to prophesy among the people. Her association with those in the prosperity gospel circle also seems to cause some concern. The band name is actually Geoff Moore and the Distance. You win the internet today Emma K.
Josh ……The scripture says: Even a fool can be mistaken for a wise man if he keeps his mouth shut… Did God say to attack the position of women in the church … so God talks to you too.. Surely you have not taken this upon yourself to drcree …. This is why the Kingdom of God is so slow in going forward.. That is very wise. I just exhorted my parents and brother and family to do the same. Have the Berean spirit: look into these things to see whether these things are so. Jesus warned us many false prophets are come into the world. Rebecca Cervantes: Am I reading you correctly?
You have exhorted your father and brother and other family members? These are men. Should you, a woman, be doing this? Uh, and this comment is kind of like tongue in cheek all the way. Thank you for taking time to read and interact with my article. You mention the biblical gift of a pastor in your response. It should be mentioned that God once gave apostles as a gift to the church.
Where are the apostles today? They passed away. So have the miraculous gifts. She frequently does so in conference settings.
There is a method and plan that God has established and His plan is not open for discussion or deviation. This really bothers me because I enjoy watching Beth Moore every Wednesday night. Thank you for the information. The Bible disagrees with you. Matthew God has given us this gift and all others in even more abundance for today. Powered by Him. These people are living in the past. Back then it was culture for women to be seem and not heard. He has given her the ability and the heart to spread His word.
To go out and spread the gospel. Scripture is very clear that women are not allowed to teach over men. Obviously they could teach other women and children only. I pray for the author of this article to walk in love, peace and joy. Seems that Josh has a bunch of rocks and is looking for someone to throw them at. Dave Musselwhite, the Jews were going to throw real stones at the woman to kill her. Pastor Josh does not want anyone to die, nor is he advocating actual stoning. That is both dishonest and unfaithful to God and His word.
There are real people that advocate killing infidels and using real stones to kill sexually immoral people, namely Muslims. By using this passage to slander Pastor Josh, you belittle the real evil that Jesus was addressing and the real evil that is happening today on the other side of the world. Shame on you. I pray that Josh takes time to pray and seeks Gods wisdom,and refrains from writing ignorant posts.
Beth Moore us a false teacher. She makes her own interpretations up about what verses mean as she flails around on stage acting like a stand-up comedian. She has also crossed the line giving so-called unbiblical prophesies. She is a danger to women. Men taking her classes isnt really her fault now is it?! With a few exceptions some women philosophers , advanced education was a male domain. Because most people in Mediterranean antiquity were functionally illiterate, those who could read and speak well generally assumed teaching roles, and—with rare exceptions—these were men.
Paul commended the ministry of a woman who brought his letter to the Roman Christians Romans ,2. Phoebe was not the only influential woman in the church. Whereas Paul greeted about twice as many men as women in Romans 16, he commended the ministries of about twice as many women as men in that list. While passages such as these establish Paul among the more progressive writers of his era, the primary controversy today rages around other passages in which Paul seemed to oppose women in ministry.
Before turning there, we must examine one passage where Paul clearly addressed a local cultural situation. I am disgusted by whatever generalization you have put on Beth Moore or Christine Caine or Joyce Meyer or any other woman in the church who feels called to speak up. Women can LEAD. God is proud of his daughters. Amen, sister! This article is so outside the lines of the life of Christ. He must be a trump supporter. How Christians cannot create space for equality is reprehensible.
I pray that this thinking becomes a thing of the past so that the gospel will move forward in life redeeming ways. Clinton, ROFL. If the write of the article is a Trump supporter then what would make me since I am not even remotely concerned about Amedica as it is not my country and the outcome of your elecotoral results would not impact my personal life or living standards; neither I am an Male Chauvinist MCP who shuns women down or beat them up. Kindly do not assume political alliance based on their Biblical viewpoint that is more in the line of calling spade a spade.
Your Truly. Completely agree. Also if you look at the context in which Paul was speaking it was a cultural issue. They are freeing and drenched in the open love of Jesus. Good post! If God had no call on Joyce Meyers life she would not be so heavily gifted! Same with all of them! In fact God will judge u for not using your gift! I noticed he is against charismatics! That is case closed he is not grounded in the word…read the book of acts! That is charismatic Christianity in action! A lot of people think that one scripture cancels out another.
Instead, we need to compare scripture with scripture and rightly divide the word. But it has to mean something! So what does it mean, exactly? Rather than trying to cancel it out with other verses, why not take some time to tell us what you think Paul means in this passage? I sometimes listen to Beth Moore in the distance. That is, I listen to her on the radio while washing clothes, vacuuming, etc. Jonie, nope. But kindly back check whatever you hear.
Paul commended them Bereans because they did not believe him point blank but went to the scripture and checked whatever Paul has preached. It applies to whoever we are listening. You will know then for sure if listening to Beth Moore is profitable for you or not. Just saying.. Thank you for this article it makes me love Beth all the more as you are narrow minded and unloving in this article. Few are addressing this particular passage in their defense of lady preachers. I am personally interested in anyone explaining to me why Paul would forbid this if the culture of his time truly supported women in leadership…which is what everyone seems to be claiming.
Clearly, using the argument of Paul forbidding women preacher because no one would accept women in a leadership role, is contradicted by what all the pro lady preacher crowd is saying about the early church accepting women in leadership.
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I ask in response, why are you even turning to this scripture when referring to a woman who is a teacher of other women. All her books speak to the reader assuming the reader is feminine. Beth Moore never went to seminary. Because seminary is not where Baptist girls are supposed to go. Women are luck that Beth Moore studies scriptures as intently as she does. You mentioned if your heart is telling you something is wrong, then it usually is. Actually, Jeremiah 17 tells us that the heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.
We need the word of God, not a feeling we have, to confirm the truth we believe. You need to read what the Bible has to say on this matter, and not go by your feelings. Please give your biblical justification for the art and science of hermenuetics. What does this device of man have to do with faith? Acts How do those trained in science and observation, walk by faith, but sight, when we are not to walk by sight? In Acts 14 Paul rips his clothes to shreds when named in honor of this false god for the message he delivered. Why do we yet strive to be able ministers of the letter and not the Spirit 2 Cor.
One thing I have learned is that no one not even Paster. My Grandmother was my first preacher. Women were preachers. Who are you to Judge God and who he works through.. There is a vs that says in those days we will be has the angels neither male or few male. Paul commends the Bereans for being skeptical of his message. Should we not follow the same example for anyone who comes into our sphere? This point has been hammered enough in this thread.
If it is wrong to judge, then stop judging. You are taking that verse out of context. We are all equal in Christ, but we all have different roles. You will never sing bass, and I will not have babies.
The real problem here goes back to Genesis …. God was saying that Eve because she was found in the transgression……. Bingo… her in lies the problem and has always been the problem. I am so glad there is no marriage in Heaven….. Reading these comments is exactly why people struggle to understand Christianity. Would Jesus Christ judge a woman vs a man like this? It is so strange to see Beth and her ministry so judged based on scripture in Timothy.
I appreciate your concerns and efforts. Please keep it up! To be forewarned is to be forearmed, spiritually! We have a duty to be the watchmen in Ezekiel 3 and 33 to look out for false doctrines and anything that draws souls away from the simplicity that is in Christ. I am very encouraged by your example. Thank you Michelle! Paul had MANY women on his ministry team and left many women behind to start home churches. Women always preached in the churches, always.
Paul often encouraged it. In fact in 1 cor , Paul admonishes the Corinthian church to stifling a woman from preaching but instead encourages the church to allow her to speak. Timothy was having problems with these women snubbing him and working on their outer appearance as opposed to doing good works. He will one day give an account to God over all of this. So yes, you can teach outside the church walls and at conferences.
The article is weak. No references or teaching anything about the original language. Head, authority, submit, have often been misinterpreted from the original greek for purposes of power and control. Beth is clearly ordained of God. Not my personal liking, but she has been called to preach. Kim, Michelle is not wrong and she most certainly knows scripture. Paul made it very clear that women are not to teach over men. And if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper [disgraceful] for a woman to speak in church.
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. Beth Moore tells a lot of blah-blah me stories, with some Scripture verses thrown in. Josh, thanks for your succinct list of the main problems with teachers like Beth Moore. Spot on! These pide pipers are twisting the word of God by not reading it in its full context. I can see many people oppose this article. They are the weak Christians voting for Hillary Clinton. I am sure they have not even recognized the evil Obama has done, but that pales in comparison to what Clinton is about to do.
I have attended several teachings of Beth Moore. I personally love what she has to say. God talks to me on a regular basis too. I am not catholic… I am a daughter of my king! The king of kings and the Lord of Lords… and yes, my Father talks to me because He loves me and we have a relationship together. The God I serve is a God of Love and not dictatorship. Josh you contradicted yourself in the same message… you said that the apostles died and so did the miracles… and then later you said that the Word of God was true.
The first 12 apostles died but there are modern day apostles and there are still many miracles today. You need to spend some alone time with God and practice the art of humility along with a whole lot less self-righteousness. On a witch hunt now are we? Let me lead the way!! Militant feminism has and is creeping into the churches. The apostate church as described by Paul in II Timothy embrace her heresies.
The rise of a dark, subtle sensual spirit of antichrist blended with Babylonian charm is sweeping over our land like a storm. This fits perfectly with the pattern of the rise of the LGBT occult. The stage for the antichrist to soon emerge is rapidly being set up with hurling velocity. Notice this: Moore.. If they were as spiritually astute as they profess they would be at home serving their kids and loving their husbands.
Are you serious? You sound like one of those male chauvinists. The preferences of Paul are not to be taken literally. He is writing from a male Jewish perspective. I am not saying she is completely right but you need to watch how you treat women. Timothy must have had problems with them and the ladies basically told Timothy to Buzz off. Paul always encouraged women to preach as many of them had home churches as seen in a lot of his letters. Woman do not want to be put in the back of the church, not allowed to speak, lets just turn the universe back years.
He plainly stated that though he believes he speaks with the mind of God, he was still a man and therefore capable of mistake. Jesus had many women within His inner circle. Mary Magdalene, an independently wealthy, unmarried from what we can tell from scripture was only one of them. Jesus appeared first to a woman, not by mere coincidence. All i here here is jealousy. This Sounds of the preist who worked to get Jeasus crusified.
How sad you are that you harp about men , i seen none should she eject any that show up? I find it ironic that we hold Lottie Moon up for the saint that she was and tell how she led men and women in China to Christ, and that was OK because she was called a missionary. But here in the states women cannot do that. I think you make a good point, Peggy.
Clearly, God utilized Lottie Moon in great ways to His glory. Rather, he stated that he does not allow women to exercise authority over men and the context of that prohibition is in the church. He states that women should remain quiet, and the context of that is in church gatherings. But she spent most of her time and efforts evangelizing women and children. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
For it is better to marry than to burn with passion. Lottie Moon seems to be a tremendous example of what is possible when God works through a single believing woman. My pastor once said, when listening to ANY human teaching, eat the meat and spit out the bones. The primary command of Jesus Himself? My heart breaks when I read articles like this one. May God have mercy on your soul! Randy, you are correct. This is a big issue, that women bring their feminist views and try to alter scripture to excuse their sin. Like they know what it means more than God does!
Many have their idols that they are unwilling to let go of, believing that they are teaching rightly the word of God without searching scripture to see if what they teach are true. No discernment. It is knowing the difference between right and almost right. Since they hear Beth Moore teach some truth, her avid fans assume all truth comes out of her mouth. Men are to be over their wives, not the other way around. Same goes for teaching, women do not teach over men. Good luck with that. Have you heard her teach?
What specifically have you heard her say that was flat out a lie and unbiblical? But sadly this article is false too. Hey scripture says greet each with a holy kiss oh my why are you not doing that Also say how terrible it is for a women not to wear head covering. Context matter most. The article even hypocrite as it say Moore Faulty Biblical Hermeneutics. You the writter just as faulty. Hello Peter daughter were prophet to the church. Judge over Israel was a woman. Romans guess what a women was a apostle. The name is a female name.
So many cannot read the bible. So things are custom of the day not a absolute for all time. Washing feet was the custom does ever church do that today? Sadly women run to Meyers and other false women without any discernment at all. Paula White another false women love. You cannot be serious???? I cannot believe that you are believing what you are even saying… Jezebel spirit?!?! At home serving their kids and husbands? You clearly have studied Revelation…sadly, the ones arguing against this article have not. Even setting aside the argument regarding women teaching men, the rest of this critique of Beth Moore is spot on!
A significant reason is because of secular humanism tied to feminism creeping into Biblical interpretation, and thus misinterpretation of scripture to fit secular society falsely empowers women in the church to the point that they overstep traditional Biblical boundaries, and intimidate and virtue signal men, to the point where men stop attending due to the false doctrine that is turning churches lukewarm, apostate, and ultra-feminine. Jesus help these men not be so obtuse when it comes to interpreting scriptural Context and give the rest of us credit for knowing the scriptures as well as they do and have done our own studies and conclude just as intelligently but differently than they.
Thank you for this, pastor. This is discernment done correctly. Are you kidding? Where are the men? There are far more women in the church then men. When did you ever serve in the nursery or bring food when needed or sing in the choir or teach a bible study. Most men sit at home while the wives go to church and take the kids.
When is the last time you invited someone to church or lead someone to Christ? Barbara, none of that matters. As Justin Peters one of the most humble men I have ever met said, she is one of the most dangerous women in evangelicalism today. She is so skilled at twisting the Scripture that she makes it virtually unnoticeable by the less discerning.
Maybe the problem is the lack of male leadership which some of the comments here seem to leave a sense of threatened men. As you know, prophesy is a word from God. Why do people keep mentioning Deborah? Deborah was a judge. It says absolutely nothing about Deborah teaching the Word or being in authority over men or anyone in spiritual areas. And in Judges 5 she sings a song of praise to God for what He had done.
Just read Judges chapters 4 and 5, friends. Barbara Your forgetting the important part here. This is a commandment from the Lord. And if you read in the bible and look up 1st Timothy 2 you will plainly see what it indicates that God himself said those words. And are you better than God huh?? If you are denying God. You need a wake-up call. God specified why he wanted man as a prophet. God is perfect. Just remember that. Quit being a racist person.
And think women rule everything. Because they sure do not. If you are not saved. You would not understand the ways of the Lord. As God says that in the bible also. The loss are like the blind leading the blind. They know not the lord and his ways. You might do things in Church. But your a lost soul who truly does not understand the Lord.